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First shotgun

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by stevebc, Mar 29, 2016.

  1. stevebc

    stevebc Lead Moderator Staff Founders

    A short while ago, when the world was looking uglier than usual, I found myself looking at shotguns. I've never owned, or fired a shotgun before- a gap in my upbringing I'll be sure to bring to my late father's attention as soon as I meet up with him- and then one day I said I was thinking of getting a shotgun, and Hannah surprised me by saying she was thinking we should have one.
    Both of us were thinking home defense, and we live in an older mobile home, so the shorter the better.
    In the end, we opted for one of Canada Ammo's deals: the DA Grizzly 8.5" 12ga pump w/case of 00 Buck low recoil ammo: $529.99 plus taxes and shipping.

    [​IMG]

    Never having fired a shotgun, I was prepared for a serious kick in spite of the "low recoil" claim, and partly because we watched a big beefy kid around 6' and 200 pounds on You-Tube shooting one, and it looked like it was giving him a good hard kick. Since I weigh considerably less than 200 lbs, this was a concern.

    Pretty much everything about this gun is foreign to me, but I (finally) took it out to the range today with a box of ammo. Put on my home-made shooting jacket with the built in recoil pad, loaded up my very first 12ga round, aimed at a sheet of cardboard about 10 feet away and BOOM.

    Hm, that was... mild. Try again: loaded it all up: 1 in the chamber, 2 in the tube, aim again at the cardboard, and once again, recoil not an issue. Take off the jacket, try again- this thing is NO problem, and really quite fun. Was wishing I'd brought more ammo...

    Kinda neat firing something "in the general direction of the target" and still getting hits. Actually, lots more fun than I expected. I'll have to do some more research and see how the shot spreads at different ranges, but for our needs, it'll be very effective.
    I really, really hope I never need it for it's intended use.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It turns out that both of us were thinking we should buy something like this while we could. No, I haven't heard any rumours, but it seems to me that sooner or later the Libs will move against us. Very short (28.5") shotguns might well be on the "hit list".
     
  2. Ken

    Ken Crossbow Man

    I have the same one. Great little backpacking gun. Never had a single issue with it, and it always goes with me when I'm anywhere outdoors. (Save for Manning which has a strict firearms ban in it's campsites)
    Wouldn't mind firing the mag fed version to see how it works though. Heard there were some feed issues.
     
  3. NavyCuda

    NavyCuda Grand Nagus Staff Founders

    Great write up!

    The KSG I wanted was sold... so the only other shotgun I want is very far out of my price range.
     
  4. Shawn

    Shawn Moderator Staff Founders

    Nice looking gun

    As for the home defense thing in my opinion you are far better off using a handgun. A shotgun, despite popular opinion, is an experts weapon. especially if you intend to fight effectively with it.

    Shawn
     
  5. drogers33

    drogers33 Longbow Man Founders

    I've had 2 of those shotguns. They were different runs, one works flawlessly and the other wasn't. I sold the one that was iffy(w/full disclosure) and I've kept the other as a camp gun.

    I haven't taken any shotgun specific courses but just from what I've done in the way of drills with guys who have, I'll agree with the expert part 100%. Far harder to use in close quarters and keep in action after the loaded rounds are fired.
     
  6. stevebc

    stevebc Lead Moderator Staff Founders

    With a handgun, I'm concerned with anyone downrange. With a shotgun, a lot less so.
     
  7. Ken

    Ken Crossbow Man

    The biggest disadvantage of a shotgun is the same as any long gun, retention.
    As Steve mentioned the fact the shotgun round won't end up down the street is a big plus, but depending how tight your halls are, you are at risk when turning the corner. You can mitigate the risk with a pistol by switching up ammo, but then you also have to worry about the storage. Strictly speaking a pistol stored legally is slower to access and ready, than a shotgun is. It's all a trade off for something else.
     
  8. NavyCuda

    NavyCuda Grand Nagus Staff Founders

    Well I suppose that depends on how good your lawyer is.

    My grandfather always slept with a snub-nosed hammerless chrome .38 special under his pillow.

    Now define storage verses use. When you're sleeping you're using your pillow, your bed. By extension, if you have a snub-nose .38 under your pillow is it being stored or is it in use? Personally I would argue it's in use as a home security device. I'm too much of a pussy to actually risk trying it, let alone having to explain myself in front of a judge. So my m14 is close by and well, it would have over penitration issues something fierce.

    I think a .38 special or .380 ACP would be the ideal handgun choice for home defense because really, you just have to protect your family and retreating to and securing one room while waiting for the police is going to present the lowest risk.
     
  9. Ken

    Ken Crossbow Man

    My non legal opinion/suspicion would be that if you had the pistol under your pillow while you slept the crown would argue you were not in control as you are not awake and cognizant. Same as how if you could prove you were sleep walking when you committed a crime you're not culpable.
    It's all about intent too, so if you said you had the pistol under your bed for home defense, they could argue you intended to use lethal force. I'd you run and grab your m14 and load it you could say you feared for your life and in the heat of the moment the only thing you could think of was getting your legally stored firearm.

    No matter what if you use a firearm to defend your house you'll see the inside of a courtroom,you just have to pray for a sympathetic judge and a good lawyer.
     
  10. NavyCuda

    NavyCuda Grand Nagus Staff Founders

    Your arguments are based on passing the blame.

    I personally don't have sleep walking issues but if I did and I committed a crime while sleep walking I would expect to be held accountable because it was me that committed the act.

    Personally the idea of having to run to, grab a firearm, charge it and then defend myself takes too much time in an emergency. If someone breaks in but I have enough time to be properly armed before they truely have the advantage on me, my being armed could save their life as well as mine. If they tried to disarm me while loading a weapon the chances of someone actually getting shot goes through the roof.

    Intent is difficult to prove and also is a bit subjective. If you're completely truthful then you give the court no choice but to believe your stated intent. If you lie, well then you're fucked.

    My intent would be to be able to control and defuse the situation through the display of potential force until such a time as the authorities arrive and they can handle the situation.
     
  11. Ken

    Ken Crossbow Man

    My assertion as to guilt when sleepwalking is legal precedent in Canada.
    As for your counter argument I'm not saying you're wrong, just that the Crown will argue intent. There's tonnes of precedent where by carrying a lethal weapon you are found have intent to use the weapon lethally.
    It'd end up a matter of the case specifics, but at the end of the day legally speaking a loaded weapon implies intent for lethal force. At least in our courts.
     
  12. NavyCuda

    NavyCuda Grand Nagus Staff Founders

    Well I have stood in front if a judge an successfully argued my intent against the crown, even with evidence in their favor, so I know it is possible. Wasn't firearms related though.

    Legal precedent or not it is a shitty argument, just like the guy who wasn't criminally responsible for beheading a person on a bus. If you are not in control of your body, tough shit, you can't be trusted.
     
  13. Shawn

    Shawn Moderator Staff Founders

    As for the perceived negatives of a handgun for the most part they are myths or non issues.

    Over penetration:

    There are two points to this. One, with modern defensive ammo this is simply not an issue. Ball yes, modern HP not so much. Two, there are only three types of shotgun rounds acceptable for defensive use, 00 buck, 000 buck and slug. All of which will penetrate more than a pistol.

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/

    Similar to over penetration we have shot spread with a shot gun:

    While not a huge issue at in house distances you have to be aware that unless you are under about 15m you pattern with buck is going to be around 13 inches with a stock gun. The shorter the barrel the faster that spread increases. He is an example:

    [​IMG]

    Let say for sake of the point say that the bad guy in this pic is the woman and the man is your wife/kid/mom/cousin/submissive/nanny who ever lives with you. Do you feel comfortable sending a 13 inch pattern of buck down that hall? I sure as fuck dont. A pistol or rifle, on the other hand, I would take that shot all day long.

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-20-buckshot-patterns/

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-42-precision-shooting-with-buckshot/

    It is absolutely possible to make that shot if you practice, use quality ammo, practice and you know how your ammo patterns at all the distance you are likely to encounter. Now the question becomes are you willing and able to put in that amount of range time to acquire that knowledge, to the point that you are willing to risk the life of your loved ones on it? I know I cant.

    Storage:

    Non issue, but it cost some money. This is what I use

    [​IMG]

    Here is a better view
    [​IMG]

    This is a "SAFE" not like that gunvault BS it weights a good 20 lbs. It uses RFID via wrist band (what I use), key fob, or card to access. Place you wrist over the H and it opens. It also have 4 digit code, and key entry, all modes of entry can be used at any time. It runs on plug in with AA battery back up. I tested the battery back up and I got a good 30 - 40 openings on batteries alone. It fits a gun with light attached and one mag perfectly. Tested fit with both glock17 with surefire x300 and sig p226 with x300 and a mag with both no issues.

    They really hit one out of the park on this one it is designed to last. Look right under the guys pinky finger. That silver thing with two screws is a wear bar that the locking bolts cam against. It is removable and replaceable so you can replace them as they wear over time and not need to buy the safe over again. The gas shocks are also removable and replaceable.

    Store with gun unloaded and loaded mag in the sleeve.

    So unless you are storing your shotgun loaded using a pistol and this setup is actually faster to deploy.

    I can wave my hand over the safe grab my gun, tap and rack it, far faster than I can load four rounds into a shotgun. Especially at night in the dark while still waking up.

    Not necessarily related to the handgun vs shotgun thing. But when deciding on a home defense storage solution make sure that you are able to open said solution with one hand, either hand, and while that hand it covered in blood, hand lotion, sweat, lube or anything you have ever had on your hands in your room. So that bio-metric BS is a strict no no.

    And lastly for this post we have retention:

    Others have touched on this already so I will just add a few points about it. As has been said in confined spaces it is far easier to retain a handgun over a long arm in a fight. But you also have to consider all the other things you may be required to do at the same time as fighting with your firearm of choice:

    -dialing 911 (dont talk to them when they pick say i am being attacked and fear for my life at 12345 flesh light ave, 123 flesh light ave and put the phone in your pocket and forget about it)
    -pushing/pulling/carrying a loved one that is injured or to remove them fro the line of fire
    -opening and closing doors (just because you only have one hand on your shotgun does not mean you will not have to fight for your life at that very second)
    -moving objects that are in your way
    -being able to effective fight if you are injured, ever try one handed drills with a shotgun? It is a come to jesus moment for many the first time they try
    -should the guy surrender dealing with him while holding a handgun vs a shotgun
    -dealing with the shotgun if the situation suddenly becomes non life threatening

    I am sure there are others but that is all I can think of off the top of my head

    Shawn
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2016
  14. Shawn

    Shawn Moderator Staff Founders

    Also check out that box of truth site it has a ton of sweet tests that guy has done.

    They are not 100% scientific but they are really good at illustrating the principles of the subjects that the science proves form other sources. Such as the FBI and ballistic testing labs in the US. I have looked at the source data from those very very dry place and his results are sound.

    Damn I just looked at that other post of mine and I was all like "I will post a few thoughts", then preceded to shit out the encyclopedia bertanica

    Shawn
     
  15. Shawn

    Shawn Moderator Staff Founders

    Also if your home defense gun does not have a light on it your are wrong

    Shawn
     
  16. NavyCuda

    NavyCuda Grand Nagus Staff Founders

    I want that safe. His and hers!
     
  17. Shawn

    Shawn Moderator Staff Founders

    Cabela's carries them. I think I had the first one in Canada I ordered it form the US the day it came out.

    Shawn
     
  18. Ken

    Ken Crossbow Man

    What's the price point on that?
     
  19. Shawn

    Shawn Moderator Staff Founders

  20. Ken

    Ken Crossbow Man

    I want one that is exactly that, but also a fire safe...
     
  21. Kagia

    Kagia Crossbow Man Founders

    Damn that is short. Makes my 11" look like a bird gun!

    I've never tried low recoil loads, but regular buck and slug loads smack me around pretty good out of the short barrels.

    I'm not going to try to tell you which type of gun is best for home defense, because I don't know piss all about it.

    If the time ever came, I'd probaby grab the Glock, just because it has less flash, less noise, and I can load it faster.

    When it comes to retention, the shotgun may be easier for the assailant to grab, due to its length, but it also offers you the ability to attach it to your body with a sling. The pistol generally does not, unless you have it in a carbine kit.
     
  22. stevebc

    stevebc Lead Moderator Staff Founders

    Yup, I want a light on it too. Working on that.
     
  23. Kagia

    Kagia Crossbow Man Founders

    M4?
     
  24. NavyCuda

    NavyCuda Grand Nagus Staff Founders

    Yep!
     
  25. Kagia

    Kagia Crossbow Man Founders

    Lol I want one too man. Bad!

    I could have had a $250 discount on one back in the day when they were still "only" like $2200 because it had a small scratch on the rear sight but I passed on it...
     

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